The highs, the lows, and the gloating….

5 Nov

So I’m just gonna get this outta the way right off the bat, and then we’ll move onto other things…


Ok…. I’m done gloating.  I can honestly say that this is the first time in my adult life that I’ve experienced this kind of American Pride.  When Clinton was in office, I was too young to have really cared about the “pre-Clinton” years, so I didn’t appreciate how good we had it with him.  And then almost 8 years of Bush retardation left a bad taste in my mouth and constant gas pains towards our country that I never thought would go away.   But then minty-fresh and soothing Obama stepped up to the plate… and for the first time I have hope.  I have hope that the rest of the planet will slowly begin to be friends with us again, and that I won’t have to immediately apologize whenever I’m traveling overseas and tell someone I’m from the U.S.  I have hope that there is FINALLY going to be someone in the White House looking out for those of us who don’t own multi-billion dollar companies.  I have hope that someday my husband will be able to have health care.  I have hope that this moronic war will soon come to an end, and that the troop’s families will finally have them back home safely.  The list goes on and on.  His election shows a massive change in our country… it’s proven that the majority of the country is completely sick of the “Old Rich Guy” way of doing things, and we’ve spoken.  This is also a MASSIVE step towards people being hired for a job based on merit- and not hired or discriminated against because of color.

I actually cried last night during his acceptance speech.  Brad was driving home from class listening to it, and he called me and told me he was crying too.  For those of you who don’t know me personally… I’m not a teary person.  I usually only cry by reflex if I get socked in the nose.  And I’m not easily moved in a positive way… especially if politicians are involved.  But Obama made me cry.  For that, he should get a bonus award.  I’ve been on cloud 9 all day long.

But now the lows….. there were oodles of propositions on the table for California in this election.  One of them, Proposition 8,  was to ban homosexual marriages.  This was passed.  It is now no longer legal for homosexual couples to get married in the state of California.  And this breaks my heart.  Below is a video that I think sums up the just how ridiculous and unjust it is to deny these loving couples the right to a sacred union.   Warning …. there are violent and graphic scenes in there, so if you’ve got a weak stomach or freak out easily, don’t watch it.  Seriously… and if you do watch it and freak out, it’s not my fault.

If you didn’t want to watch it, I’ll sum it up.  This video lists serial killers, violent offenders, serial rapists and pedophiles (basically people who are so horrible that our society has locked them in a cage to keep them away from us) who all got married AFTER they went to prison.  Some were married while on death row.  Some even fathered children while in prison.  Ted Bundy. Members of the Manson Family.  John Wayne Gacy.  The Hillside Stranglers.  And on and on.  These people have the constitutional right to get married… but law abiding, tax paying, loving couples don’t.  Does that make sense? Does that seem fair?   So I can rape people, kill people, dismember them, eat them, mutilate them, rape and kill children, kidnap people, etc… then after being caught and sentenced to a life time in prison (or even be sentenced to death), I can get myself a pen pal, decide to marry this pen pal even though we will never be able to share a home, a life, or even a bed every night… and that marriage is viewed as sacred.  BUT if I’m a good person, follow all of society’s rules, living a happy and productive life, and I fall in love and want to share my life with this wonderful love- I’m not allowed to if my love has the same reproductive organs that I do?

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE!!!!! There is no excuse for this.  It is so horribly fucking wrong that it makes my stomach hurt.  Does this make sense to ANYONE out there?… because if it does please stand the fuck up and explain it to me.  Seriously.  I want to understand this.  I want to know why 18,000 couples who were FINALLY able to get married in California now have the heartbreak of their wedding no longer being recognized as valid.  I want to know why anyone feels they have the fucking right to do this to other people… to perfect strangers.  Shame on you, right-wing conservatives.  What would Jesus do?…. certainly not what you Christians did to the homosexual population…. that’s for fucking sure.  But seriously… if the facts above make any sense to anyone out there reading this, PLEASE explain.  I promise I won’t go off on you, or call you names, or be disrespectful in any way.  I just really want to know why love isn’t celebrated…. no matter who the couple is who shares that love.

Brad said that at least gay marriage is still legal in Massachusetts.  And if you’re married in one state, then that marriage is recognized legally in all states (Article 4, Section 1 of the Constitution states “Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State”).  So if you break a law in one state, your still a criminal in every other state… AND if you get married in one state, you’re still married in every other state.  But that doesn’t make it better in my eyes.  Brad also said, “Well, we can’t win everything”.  Oh yeah?  Why the fuck not?

The Republicans, the rich, and the Christian Evangelicals have been running the show for close to a decade.  We were inches away from having Roe v Wade back on the table; from having a Vice President who thinks that our environmental tragedy had nothing to do with pollution and doesn’t believe that horny teenagers should be taught how to use a condom (ie: her own knocked up teenager who is being forced into marriage); from having another president who only looks out for fellow members of his rich, white “Boy’s Club”, and leaves the rest of the nation to fall to pieces… etc.  The other guys have had it all for fall too long.  I think it’s time WE had it all.  And not even ALL of it… just a little justice, common sense, and equal treatment.  Why is that so much to ask for?

So shame on you, California, for letting Prop. 8 get passed.  One step forward, two steps back.  That is the American Waltz.

I apologize for not being able to rant to you all until this late in the evening today.  I am part of a group gallery show in Cleveland at a magical little place called “Shoparooni“, and I had to finish my piece and overnight ship it to them so they would have it tomorrow.  The opening is Friday night, and it’s a “plushform” show… which means it’s all hand painted little dolls!!!  So if you’re in the area, you really should go out to it.

So let’s all end this day with swelling happiness for the Obama victory, but keep the couples who have been hit hard by Prop 8 in your thoughts.  And let’s hope that now since we’ve got some good in the White House, we won’t have as many Prop 8 tragedies in our future.



45 Responses to “The highs, the lows, and the gloating….”

  1. Jesse November 5, 2008 at 5:36 pm #

    ” I just really want to know why love isn’t celebrated…. no matter who the couple is who shares that love.”

    For me, I believe that homosexuality does not lead to happiness. Any ‘happiness’ that gay couples feel is not genuine, and will not last. Either in this life, or the next, they will eventually be brought to the knowledge of what their ‘happiness’ truly is: fake.

    These are just my beliefs. I know that many people, like yourself, probably do not feel the same. But this is what I believe. When I see gay couples together, it truly makes me sad.

    Like I said, these are just my beliefs. I thought I’d share them to you that you might understand how some of us pro-Prop 8 people feel about this topic.

  2. Kristen Ferrell November 5, 2008 at 5:53 pm #

    Even if that is your belief, why does it give you the right to keep these people apart. Whether or not your think their love is “real” or “valid”… that isn’t for the law to dictate. Brittany Spear’s 18 hour marriage was deemed valid, sacred, and legally recognized. Was that “real love”?… no. But is anyone allowed to stop it? Of course not. Marriages happen every day for convenience, because of pressure, because of money and status, to gain citizenship, and a million other reasons that have NOTHING to do with “love”. Love is just the ideal reason to get married. But whatever the reasons, those are between the couple, and not to be judged by others.

    I have gay friends who’s relationships are so strong and so powerful that their devotion to one another is what I strive towards in my marriage. And to witness that kind of love, and be around 2 people who have been together for years and their love keeps getting stronger and stronger- I don’t question it. At all. Their relationships are truly beautiful (and I can honestly say that I have only 1 straight couple that I’m friends with who even comes close to them).

    But, I also could just as easily fall in love with a woman as I could with a man… probably easier. I have deeper connections with women than I do men, and am more comfortable in women’s company. If I had met a woman with all the same characteristics and qualities that my husband has before I had ever met my husband- than that would have been my choice. You don’t fall in love with a penis or a vagina… you fall in love with a PERSON.

    I understand how you may feel the things that you do… but why do you feel like you have the right to impose those personal feelings onto the relationships of total strangers? Especially when there’s no way that you can see into someone’s heart and know what’s “valid” and what’s not? How is that fair… especially when it’s affecting such a large number of people?

  3. Jesse November 5, 2008 at 6:11 pm #

    My beliefs that I related in my first response are not why I support a ban on same-sex marriage. Although I feel that way about homosexuality and gay relationships, I too still recognize that it is important that all people be allowed to love and form relationships with whomever they want. If Prop 8 were a proposition that made forming gay relationships illegal, I would have opposed it.

    I know you probably won’t want to hear it, but the reason I oppose same-sex marriage is because of the many unknown repercussions that very easily can result from promoting and legalizing same-sex marriage. I’m sure you’ve heard them over and over again, but in case you’re wondering, there is an 8-minute video that outlines some of these reasons:

  4. Jesse November 5, 2008 at 6:13 pm #

    Thanks as well for the opportunity to share. It truly is refreshing to respectfully talk about this.

  5. Kristen Ferrell November 5, 2008 at 6:47 pm #

    Ok, with the video….

    *No one is wanting to take down the church. No one is wanting to infringe on the Church’s teachings or laws of anyone’s god. And to think that someone would try to legally go after a church just because they couldn’t get married in it doesn’t make sense when there are so many churches that are very open to the gay community (we’ve got a church right down the street from our house that welcomes the gay community). The gay community tends to not flock to where they are hated. There are many religions that deeply frown upon their believers marrying outside of the faith, and lawsuits aren’t brought against their religion… the couple just gets married somewhere else.

    *Children having to acknowledge gay marriage in school- this won’t change a thing. If your child goes to public school, they are going to be going to school with gay teachers, gay students, students with gay parents, etc. This is what public school is about- the public. This fosters tolerance, and acceptance of people from all walks of life. A child needs to learn how to be secure in their own beliefs while accepting the beliefs of others. This is how we grow as a community- and how we lessen the kinds of fears that are talked about in the video. If everyone was raised to be strong in their own beliefs BUT respecting that everyone is allowed to believe different things, noone’s belief system is threatened. But if a parent is opposed to having their child in a setting that doesn’t fit with their religious beliefs, that’s what private schools are there for. My niece goes to a private school, and they are free to structure their curriculum with tones that fit their religious beliefs. Children aren’t going to be any more subjected to gay marriage if Prop 8 was passed.

    As much as I scream and yell and stomp my feet in my postings on here, I really do enjoy respectfully talking about the issues. I don’t tolerate people being hateful towards me when I voice my opinion, and I would never spew hate at someone who is respectfully voicing their beliefs. Especially with this topic… because I really don’t understand the other side.

    Though, Jesse, do you see how Prop 8 can upset people? If you were in a relationship, and you wanted to be able to stand up among family and friends and state your devotion to each other as a couple… wouldn’t it be hurtful to you if you were told that you weren’t allowed to call it “marriage” because you didn’t share the same religious beliefs as others? My older brother is is an Episcopalian Priest, and his church welcomes the gay community. So even if the church was involved and sanctioned the couple’s union- the state wouldn’t… because it still didn’t fit into other people’s beliefs. Wouldn’t that make your heart hurt if you were denied in that way? Wouldn’t that make you angry?

  6. Carrie Ann Baade November 5, 2008 at 8:01 pm #

    For the record: you are awesome~~! Great video.
    Folks need to WAKE UP! Hateful legislation passes under the noses of the sleeping. In 1992, amendment 2 was passed in Colorado that took rights away from same sex couples, instead of reassuring their constitutional rights to have a job and housing without prejudice. (This was repealed a year later, so, the hate was victorious for only a short while). Here in Florida this year, we had a yes on amendment 2: “This amendment protects marriage as the legal union of only one man and one woman as husband and wife and provides that no other legal union that is treated as marriage or the substantial equivalent thereof shall be valid or recognized.” Another set back for those same sex couples whose rights should be honored if not accepted and protected.

  7. Tenacious D November 5, 2008 at 8:51 pm #

    It’s things like this that turns people away from God. That truly makes me sad.

    My question is this…what happened to separation of church and state? These issues should not be laws. Ugh!

    Btw…I was in Los Angeles this weekend visiting my son. I came very close to seeing if you wanted to meet for coffee. I really would like to meet you someday. Wow… Does that sound stalkish?

  8. Kristen Ferrell November 5, 2008 at 8:57 pm #

    It boils down to ignorance… and not the “god, what a fucking dummy!” kindof ignorance- but the actual definition. People who have sheltered themselves from things that they deem as different, wrong, or sinful don’t actually have a real understanding of what these things are about. If someone has a really strict religious belief system that states homosexuality is wrong- then they stay away from homosexuals. But this keeps them from actually understanding that homosexuals aren’t this raging insane group of heathens set out to destroy Christianity. These are PEOPLE. But they’ve been dehumanized and lumped into this group of “sinners”. From ignorance stems fear… fear of them “infiltrating” the Church, or schools, or whatever else (which is nutso, because again, they’re just PEOPLE!!!). And from fear stems hatred. And with hatred comes oppression, violence, prejudice, and all the behaviors that the human race is trying to rise above.

    When you live on a planet with over 6 billion people, ya gotta make room for differences. People are going to not like each other. People are going to not agree with each other. People are going to hate the way other people live. That comes with the territory. But in order for everyone to have a shot at an equal and fair existence, we’ve got to all allow for those differences to exist and accept them. We don’t have to embrace the things we don’t like about each other- but we do have to allow for everyone to be given the right to live how they want and share all the same freedoms.
    I could fill volumes with all the people on this planet that I hate…. but am I ever going to do anything to restrict their freedoms or the way they exist? Hell no. Because I wouldn’t want that done to me. And to take freedoms that we enjoy away from someone else is oppression. And it is nothing short of hate in action. We need less of that.

  9. Kristen Ferrell November 5, 2008 at 9:11 pm #

    TD…. that’s totally not “stalkish”. You’re so funny!
    And you’re right… this is the kind of stuff that turns people away from the church. It certainly wants me to continue to run from it.

  10. Kararararalyn November 5, 2008 at 9:31 pm #

    where did Jesse go?

    What an eye opening video. I remember Father Porter. He was a priest that many in my family knew in the community. Unbelievable to hear that that monster MARRIED someone. This is what it’s about…letting people that are MONSTERS marry. Unfortunately, to some people, homosexual people are and will always be viewed as monsters. WTF! Barack is just one bright step towards a continued path of change. In my lifetime…next up…a GAY PRESIDENT!!!!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!

    So American of me, we just got what we all wanted, now I want more..

  11. germinfested November 5, 2008 at 9:43 pm #

    The guy in Jesse’s video kind of made me want to vomit. ANYWAYS. I really think the reason why people don’t like religion is because there’s so many rules. Which makes me sound like an 8 year old kid, but I just don’t care. It’s fact. When you go into a religion, you agree to adhere to every single rule that said religion has, and a lot of these religions are following books made many many many years ago, translated tons and tons of times, WHO THE FUCK KNOWS what the original said, anyways? Off topic, back to the point.

    It’s unfair to say that if Prop 8 were passed, all the damn rabid gays would raid the churches and draw mustaches on portraits of Jesus. I don’t understand how anyone can say that people would become “intolerant” of churches if it were passed. It’s never been any other way, so how could anyone know. Fuck, I’m intolerant of churches as it is, but I am VERY supportive of ones the accept anyone with open arms to matter what their skin color, gender, orientation or what have you. I don’t believe what they teach, but I do give them MAJOR kudos. I also give kudos to the churches that (i hope) will come to their senses about gay marriage and accept it. MAAAAD kudos in my book. And I’m sure a lot of other people too.

    Also, Jesse, I don’t quite agree with your depiction of gay people not being able to be happy. I don’t know how you can decide this, since I’m assuming you aren’t gay, yourself. I could just as easily say I don’t think it’s possible for straight people to be happy. I don’t understand how you can make that judgment call for people you don’t even relate with. In addition, I don’t think it matters if you think they’re happy or not, even if you truly believe they’re unhappy, even if they actually ARE unhappy, it’s their choice to make. I promise, if you think you’re protecting these people from being unhappy, it’s really just the opposite. I can go for DAYS about unhappy straight couples. I agree non-violent conversations are good ones, and I hope I haven’t come off too blunt.

    Also, Kristen, this is for you. I don’t know if you’ve already seen it, but it’s so funny. SO FUNNY.

  12. Kristen Ferrell November 5, 2008 at 9:55 pm #

    Let’s make that a LESBIAN president!!! I want to see a woman in charge…. just not Palin. ANYONE but Palin. She’s dumber than a sack of hair.
    (I KNOW all those “go-God!” guys are ok with lesbians… just check their hidden porn stash).

    And I watched that SNL video about a dozen times. It’s AMAZING!!!!

    But the problem (or one of the problems) that I always had for the church is that they don’t allow for other lifestyles, and it’s either their way or the highway. That just doesn’t work out in today’s society. Now, there are open churches out there that go with what Jesus actually preached- and not all the other crap. And I’m friends with alot of Christians who are completely non-judgmental and embrace everyone (my neighbor is a devout Christian, and she’s just about one of the most open, honest, and fantastic ladies I’ve ever met, and she’s never judged me even though I’m on the other end of the spectrum in beliefs than her). But when the church strays from what Jesus preached (which is love and acceptance), and start going balls-out old testament… then there’s a problem. The old testament no longer applies to modern life (um, which was the whole point of Jesus… get it?… he washed away the sins with his blood… do ya all remember that part????). And with all the hate, and violence, and bullshit going on right now, is keeping loving couples from getting married just because some old testament rhetoric isn’t down with it really worth all the fuss?

  13. Kararararalyn November 5, 2008 at 9:59 pm #


    hope no one notices…..didn’t mean that….

  14. whitney November 5, 2008 at 10:02 pm #

    i’m sooo fucking happy for obama!!!

    since it’s pretty damn blatant on how shitty it is that prop 8 passed… all i can say is FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😦

  15. Jesse November 6, 2008 at 12:45 am #

    Hey everyone,

    I can definitely understand why what happened would make someone angry. If they feel that the right to marry truly does belong to them, then yes, I imagine having it taken from them must feel pretty lousy.

    I know this is cliche, but I do know gay people. My cousin is lesbian, and we see each other often (though admittedly not as much lately). She has conveyed many times how much pain she is going through, so she has helped me to understand that aspect just a little bit more.

    I do not avoid gay people. I don’t think they’re bad people. The major thing that gay people have a hard time understanding is our philosophy of ‘loving the sinner, yet hating the sin.’ This is often times very difficult to do. With gays, the ‘sin’ is often so much a part of the ‘sinners’ lifestyle that it might seem to the ‘sinner’ that we are in fact hating them. But for me, it’s not like that. I want to protect my children, society, and religion from the sin of same-sex marriage, not necessarily from the person who is engaging in the sin. You’ve got to admit, this is rarely understood by pro-same-sex marriage people.

    @ germinfested: Again, those are my beliefs. I believe that no one will find true happiness in sin, regardless of what it is. If a man is promiscuous with many different woman, he may think he is happy and enjoying life, but he will someday realize it is not true happiness.

    Furthermore, I agree too, it is their choice. Their choice to love. Their choice to form relationships. Their choice to live together. Not their choice to change the definition of something that has stood since the beginning of time.

    (On a side note, I do think it’s rather odd how pro-same-sex marriage people are so quit to point out the flaws and imperfections of marriage in our society, and how despicable it is, yet they still for some reason want to be a part of this? If it really as bad as they make it out to be, why would you even want to get married then?)

    In my religion, we too recognize that much in the Old Testament has been done away with. Just so you know, this is not where we base our teaching on homosexuality. Go here for a simple explanation of the basics of my religion:

    Anyway, thanks for the discussion everyone.

  16. christine November 6, 2008 at 5:27 am #

    well, the old testament has rules about what women have to do when they are on their periods… Yeah… I think we can safely say we aren’t following any of those rules anymore.

    and yes…I would LOVE to see a lesbian president!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  17. Kristen Ferrell November 6, 2008 at 9:25 am #

    Jesse… I really do understand the idea of “love the sinner, not the sin”. I was raised with piles and piles and piles of god (from low key Presbyterians to the wacka-a-do Southern Baptists and Evangelicals speaking in tongues and having the seizures and visions- I’ve had it all). So these ideas aren’t foreign to me.

    But the idea that someone has the “choice” to be gay really doesn’t make any sense. First, why would someone choose this lifestyle if it wasn’t who they were? Why would someone make the choice to be ridiculed, shunned, hated, possibly ostracized by their family, and even fear for their life (there was recently a situation where a 15 year old boy was killed by another boy in his school because he was gay… and these are CHILDREN we’re talking about)? Why would someone ever say “Hell yeah- that’s what I want!” if it wasn’t who they truly were? People normally don’t take the harder road in life unless they know in their heart it’s the road they must take.

    Second, even if it’s their choice to “participate in that lifestyle”… is it better for a gay person to live the life of a straight person and be miserable? A person’s sexual preference is so deeply ingrained in them that it can’t be changed. Ever. You cannot help what you’re attracted to. You can’t make a straight person gay any more than you can make a gay person straight. It’s hardwired into us. And I know that this is a difficult thing for someone to understand if they are straight and believe that homosexuality is a “choice”… but I can tell you from my own personal experience that when I was little (like age 4 and 5) I would chase girls around the playground trying to kiss them just as much as I would chase boys. My first “celebrity crushes” were the singer of “A-ha” AND Cyndi Lauper. I’ve always had the exact same amount of pull towards women that I’ve had towards men. And this was never a “choice”- it was always just there, right from the beginning- before I was ever taught what was “right and wrong” about relationships from the church. So which is the bigger sin?… living a life that is open and honest to who you truely are even if that one aspect of your life doesn’t sit well with one religion; OR having your entire life be a lie- getting married, having kids, and never letting anyone in your life know that you’re not who you say you are, and play-pretending that it’s all ok. Having your entire life being a lie (which will lead to far more unhappiness in the long run) seems like the bigger foul.

    Thirdly- is it ok to pick and choose what you follow from the bible? How do you decide? How did the church come to the conclusion that gay is still bad, but all the other rules that don’t apply to modern society can be done away with? Who makes that call?

    Lastly, the reason why advocates for homosexual equality are quick to point out the flaws in marriage because the whole basis of denying homosexuals the right to marry is that “marriage is sacred”. And it’s laughable because marriage is no longer as “sacred” as it used to be in this society. It is to individuals- but not to America as a whole. Divorce rates are through the roof, people marry for the worst reasons, and stay in unhappy marriages for even more terrible reasons. Like in my video I posted, serial killers on death row are able to get married. We live in a country where there are “drive-through” wedding chapels. This is not a country who really holds marriage up to very high standards. BUT to individual couples- it can be a very sacred union. And there are members of the homosexual community who would like to have that sacred union as an option to them. They’d like to have the same rights as Brittany Spear’s 18 hour wedding, or members of the Manson family who will never experience another moment in their life that isn’t behind bars. If straight people have the right to make a mockery of marriage, then gay people should have the right to make marriage something special again.

  18. TaraRist November 6, 2008 at 9:31 am #

    I constantly hear the “love the sinner, hate the sin” line from Religious “holier-than thou” types. It is what it is, a COP-OUT! If you loved the sinner, (please don’t tell me you love me) you would do all you could to ensure their rights to happiness and freedom of choice. You hate the sin? What is the sin? Homosexuality? Where do Christians get this idea that Homosexuality is a sin? Right here is an example (I take it upon myself to be a very informed Atheist which includes knowing very much about religions and various “bibles”):

    Leviticus 20:13 – “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

    So people take this verse from the Old Testament for TRUTH, for what they say GOD declares.. HOWEVER, located in the SAME book, same CHAPTER even:

    7: And the swine(pig), though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
    8: Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you. (Leviticus 11:7-8)

    SO… of all these gay-bashers and religious zealots arguing with the fact that because a certain being known to most as “GOD” (although NOT worshipped by a majority of North Americans)how many consume pork products?…

    Another intense annoyance I have with Christians is the fact that they can so ardently argue one point/law/verse the bible states and then dismiss another? How many times have you heard “oh… that’s the OLD testament, it’s the NEW testament that you’ve really got to follow”.


    Does that make sense?

    It’s like teaching a bunch of 3rd graders (basically how I view the mentality of overly zealous religious bigots)and telling them, “ok kids, remember grades 1 and 2? Forget all that, uh, we changed our minds about that stuff. Now just pay attention to what we teach you from this point forward, OH but we WILL bring up a few points from the previous two years, but just when they suit us best.”

    Religion is and always has been a stifling form of control over society. To control weaker minded individuals and how better to control a population by telling them what is moral or immoral in sexual terms? It’s something basically everyone wants, has or has had in their live at some point.

    It makes me so angry.

    Canada (my country, that I love, but who’s people have recently been making very poor decisions)has made gay marriage legal in most provinces. HOWEVER, I sadly live in the most disgusting, money hungry, environmentally DESTRUCTIVE, and most heavily American influenced Province, Alberta. We don’t call gay marriage what it is… we refer to it as “Adult Interdependent Relationships”.

    Give me a break….


    Sorry that was such a long comment… But when it comes to religion (more specifically what’s WRONG with it) I could rant for days.


  19. Jesse November 6, 2008 at 9:54 am #

    In regard to religion and where we get our beliefs from . . .

    A large part of the Old Testament is a history. Jesus Christ himself replaces many of the lower aspects of the ‘law’ in the Old Testament with His higher law. Homosexuality is not one of the ‘laws’ that He changes:

    “For this cause God gave them up unto vile caffections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet” (Romans 1:26-27).

    As clarification, this is not Jesus Christ speaking. However, it is His apostle Paul, who, along with the other apostles, served as a mouthpiece for the Lord.

    “How did the church come to the conclusion that gay is still bad, but all the other rules that don’t apply to modern society can be done away with? Who makes that call?”

    This is one of the most unique doctrine that my religion believes in: we believe in modern prophets and apostles, who still relate to us in ‘real-time’ the voice of the Lord. We believe that there currently are living modern-day Abrahams and Moses and Peters. Hence, we are lucky (aka ‘blessed’) to be able to hear from the Lord’s servants exactly what the Lord’s will is concerning these matters.

    I realize this all may not make sense to many, and I don’t expect you to believe what I believe, I’m just explaining how and why I believe like this.

    I do not deny that people may actually be born with same-gender attraction. Regardless, though, I still do not feel that this automatically obligates them to act upon those attractions. If I were attracted to other men, for example, yet my beliefs dictate to me that that is wrong, I can still choose to not act on those attractions. This may mean that someone will have to go their whole lives without marrying. This will probably sound very arrogant of me, but, that is something that they’ll have to do. Each and every person in this world is given trials to endure in their lives. While I recognize that someone suppressing their attraction to the same-gender for their whole lives is a most difficult task, it can be done:

    “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it” (1 Cor. 10:13).

    It is possible to live a single life. Many, many people grow old having never married. Here again is a possibly unique doctrine I believe in: we believe they will be given the opportunity to marry and have a family in the next life.

    Just as a disclaimer again, this is not why I support the ban on same-sex marriage. These are my personal beliefs on why homosexuality is a sin, and what the Lord expects of those with same-gender attraction.

    A long article explain what I just explained about homosexuality and same-gender attraction in much greater detail . . . if you’re interested:

  20. Kristen Ferrell November 6, 2008 at 10:33 am #

    But all this is where the trickiness lies….

    We live in a country that embraces the freedom of religion. We’re allowed to worship whatever god we choose (or no god at all if it suits us). Who we pledge spiritual allegiance to is our business, and no one else. And in order to keep this freedom in place for EVERYONE, we have to have laws that are flexible enough to include everyone- and not discriminate against a large group of people. And in a country of over 300,000,000 people (that number taken from the latest census estimate), and with a modest estimate of 1 out of every 10 people being gay…. that’s a MASSIVE amount of people. Even if it was 1 out of 20 people- that’s still MASSIVE (but realistically, it’s more like 1 out of 7 or 8 people).

    So you’ve got this MASSIVE group of people who are denied a constitutional right because of another group’s religious doctrine. One religious group denying another group of people constitutional rights because of a personal belief. That’s oppression. And oppression is the kind of thing American’s puff up their chests about and claim that we’re trying to get rid of all over the globe. But we’re setting a pretty pathetic example of it here on our own stomping ground, and making ourselves look like an ass to the rest of the world.

    There’s nothing wrong with not agreeing with gay marriage. It is every person’s right to have an opinion and stand by it. No one can take that away from you- and no one should try! Jesse, I don’t agree with your stance- but I respect that you stand up for what you believe in. We all should.
    But I would never try to take away any of your rights, or tell you that you have to live one way or another just because I don’t agree with what you believe in. Ever. It’s important that you have your church and your god- just as it’s important that I keep the church away from me. You feel safe with your god, I feel safe without one. But it is all a PERSONAL CHOICE. And personal choices have no place dictating the laws for over 300,000,000 people. And just because the gay population is a minority does not mean they don’t have rights. Every person in this country should be allowed every single right that is stated in our laws… not just the god-fearing ones.
    That’s how we keep things fair and just. It’s how we keep order, and keep everyone’s freedoms protected. One person’s god can not have higher priority over such a large group of people’s lives.
    THAT is how we keep from going down a slippery slope.
    Equal respect and equal treatment for EVERYONE… Christians and non-Christians alike.

  21. Ezekiah David November 6, 2008 at 5:40 pm #

    The prop 8 win makes me feel nauseous and sad. I spent most of yesterday trying to understand how 6 million (I think, if I read the stats correctly) Californians can all not only dislike me, my friends, my partners, and anyone in a same sex relationship, (I’m sort of used to that by now), but can all think that it’s any of their business who other people marry. Voting on other people’s marriages… I don’t watch reality tv because that type of thing pisses me off, but at least they chose that. Now millions of people don’t get to choose whether they want to have their lives voted on, they just were.

    Also, to burst Brad’s bubble, but Florida just voted with something that (again, if I remember correctly) said: “no gay marriage, no civil unions, no recognition as valid or lawful anyone else’s marriage/civil unions, regardless of what state it was held in”. It’s possible it’ll force something in a federal court, but frankly I’d be more worried that it’d lose right now than anything.

    Anyway, have a good-ish day.


  22. Sam November 6, 2008 at 5:42 pm #

    I too am LDS (Mormon) but I do not completely share your views Jesse. I have a lot of homosexual friends who are in very loving relationships and more committed than most of my straight friends. Though I have the same ammount of gay friends who are the exact opposite. In other words people are going to sleep with whoever they want or enter into a loving relationship regardless of orientation.

    I have mixed feelings on gay marriage in the eyes of God but those are irrelevant.

    I know of several states who in the event of a partners death the family has a right to make their will null and void and can take away what was left to them. That is not fair or just.

    I do believe that marriage in itself is a religious institution but I do not feel that anyone has a right to take away another’s happiness or inheiritance.

    The one flaw that I see in this issue is that everyone wants to call it marriage and that makes the Crazy Christians grab their guns. However if they simply called it a civil union or whatever the hell you want to call it granting the same rights then perhaps both parties could get what they want.

    I believe that Christ loves everyone no matter what. To deny someone happiness or even, Jesse as you believe, the illusion of happiness would not be something that he would do.

    If the “gay-marrige” pisses off the conservatives then why not just call it something else? I can almost guarantee you that it would be more successful.

    As I know from the many relationships that I’ve been in compromise is the key and the same work in politics.

  23. melancholymonday November 6, 2008 at 6:48 pm #

    Kristen, long time no log in…. sorry about that, and Jesse, I’m usually the resident Christian on kristen’s blog so you can just BACK OFF. 😉

    Loving Obama as my PRESIDENT!! HOLY FREAKING CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Anyway, on Prop 8, I do have to ask you, Kristen if you think people who believe that homosexuality is wrong and teach that to their children are propagating hate speech? Also, something I’ve been pondering myself is this question: do you think gay men should be allowed to lead, and camp with, Boyscouts? I know that I would not want my daughter to have a man sleeping in her tent on her Girlscout camping trip (if she were a Girlscout) and I would not want my son in that position either. This is just one example of what could legally be defined as discrimination.

    I’m not against gays or gay marriage, but at the same time I think people should have the right to speak out on the issue if they think it’s wrong. I also think that groups should have to right to disassociate themselves with the gay lifestyle without penalties of discrimination.

    This is a tricky subject. I’ve really had a lot to think about on this. I blogged about it once. It’s on my page if you want to check it out.

  24. Kristen Ferrell November 6, 2008 at 7:57 pm #

    Hi lady!!!! I’ve missed you!! And she is right, Jesse… she’s really the only Christian allowed to be here. 😉

    Ok, the reason why there should be no problem with homosexuals leading children’s groups or overnight camping things with children because homosexuals aren’t pedophiles. Lets say your daughter had a slumber party, and you weren’t able to stay overnight with the girls- but your husband was going to stay home with all of them. Would you worry about him being around a bunch of young girls? He’s attracted to women, right? So wouldn’t it be inappropriate for him to be around a bunch of young girls? WRONG!!!! Because he’s attracted to WOMEN…. NOT children. I could take oodles of my son’s little buddies camping or hang out with them because I like men- NOT children.
    Pedophiles like kids. Homosexuals like adults of the same gender that they are. Pedophiles are sick fucking piles of trash who should get taken out and shot for preying on innocent unsuspecting children. Homosexuals are exactly like you and me- and pose no more of a threat to anyone than you or I do.

    But OF COURSE parents have the right to teach their kids whatever they want. And I KNOW that you, dear lady, would never teach your children to hate anyone. Because you’re the kind of Christian who teaches tolerance, love, and acceptance, you would be able to teach your children what you feel is right or wrong- but to also love people even though they may not agree with their lifestyle. And noone is saying that everyone has to go out and make a gay friend, and move them into the spare bedroom. No one is saying that anyone has to hang out with or include anyone in their life they don’t want there. All the homosexual community wants is to be able to have the same constitutional rights that the rest of the country (not to mention the same rights that serial killers on death row have).

    And YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I’M SO HAPPY ABOUT OBAMA!!!!!!!!

    And Sam…. thank you for being another Christian who is standing up for the rights of everyone… not just the people on your team. It’s all about accepting others- differences and all.

    And Zeke… the Florida news just made some vomit come up my throat. That’s just terrifying!!!!

  25. Kristen Ferrell November 6, 2008 at 8:08 pm #

    And I’d like to add that a large percentage of pedophiles ARE cub scout and boy scout leaders, or help in after school programs, or work in youth centers, or church groups, or summer camps, etc… any where that kids will be. And the majority of them are men working with young boys… and yes, they are usually married and have families of their own.
    The statistics are frightening.
    But the gay community isn’t any more of a threat with this than your local preacher, PTA member, or soccer coach is.

  26. germinfested November 6, 2008 at 8:30 pm #

    @Sam: Thank you mister, you just won “Favorite Mormon…ever” award. Sealed by me. Send address for trophy.
    I LOOOOOVE religious people with common sense. I get sooo bombarded with the uptight no slack religious people at school, walking down the street and they’ve even started going door to door. It’s so refreshing to see someone who has a belief structure AND good sense. It seems a lot of times the two are smooshed together.

    I agree. it’s kind of silly to think that a gay men will molest/rape little boys when the statistics show most pedophiles have families and a TON of church clergy have been accused, convicted and charged with this very thing. The world makes sense once again.

    I really hope this prop 8 thing gets overturned. I’m going to a protest this weekend on it. I REALLY hope people see how important it is. No one bitched about the other propositions, I would think that a 3,000 person rally in the freezing cold at midnight might just chip the ice berg, but really, I haven’t put arrogance past this state AT ALL.

  27. chelsea rae November 6, 2008 at 9:01 pm #

    Oh Kristen. You’re so smart it makes me want to kiss you on your minty-obama-loving mouth.
    Just not in Florida or California.

  28. chelsea rae November 6, 2008 at 9:03 pm #

    I cried too. There’s nothing to bring a tear to the eye like sweet, sweet relief. Hallelujah!

  29. butcherbaby November 6, 2008 at 9:04 pm #

    jesse- i guess what i’m going to say is a simplification of what kristen said, but i gotta sate my piece.
    if you do not approve of homosexual relationships, that is 100% ok. if you only want to go to churches that feel the same way, more power to you.
    HOWEVER……church and state are supposed to be separate. gay marriage rights – or actually, any laws or amendments- should NOT be based on the wishes of one particular religious sect- whether christian, muslim, hindu, buddhist, pagan, jewish, satanist, atheist, or agnostic. and as not every christian believes the same as you, nor does every christian church frown on marrying gays, it is not even a universal *christian* belief. so why should the will & belief of one small portion of our citizens be forced on to all people who don’t necessarily believe the same way? you might as well mandate a law that everyone has to go to church on sunday or be punished.
    i don’t understand how letting gay people be married will affect the institution of marriage in general or my marriage in particular. i’d really like to hear a good reasonable answer to this question, especially in a world where many hetero marriages are performed without the benefit of any religious overtones (like mine- justice of the peace all the way baby.)

    lastly, if it turns out that the christians are right and there really is a vengeful god out there that thinks homos are a sin, well, then why don’t you just let his will be done and he can punish them as he sees fit.

  30. Kristen Ferrell November 6, 2008 at 9:09 pm #

    Chelsea… we can’t kiss in Florida. We can still kiss in California- but we can’t exchange rings. (and I would have spent FAR more than $30 for your ring… for reals… so California just totally fucked you over. For that, you should sue).

    And smart Christians are a total delight. Seriously. My next door neighbor is really devout- and she RULES!!!! We’re planning on having a “fake cupcake” making crafty afternoon so she can make her granddaughter some fun synthetic pastries to go with her tea set (sans severed fingers and dentures like mine always have, of course).
    But I really do adore the combination of spirituality with common sense. It’s so refreshing… especially since I’ve had to endure countless hate-spewing Christians in my life. I could do without ever running into another one of those folks again (but I KNOW that’s too much to ask)

  31. Kristen Ferrell November 6, 2008 at 9:16 pm #

    “lastly, if it turns out that the christians are right and there really is a vengeful god out there that thinks homos are a sin, well, then why don’t you just let his will be done and he can punish them as he sees fit.”
    Ooooooo…. good one, lovely butcherbaby!!!!!
    That has always been my stance. I live my life to be as kind, fair, and true to what I feel is really right. I’m honest, I stand up for people, and I adhere strictly to the “Golden Rule”. If there is a god, then I’ll deal with him when I die. And if he’s such a good guy, he’ll see that I’m an ok person, and he’ll let me through those pearly gates. But if I still don’t meet his standards, or he doesn’t like me because I didn’t run around saying he was my top dog (even though he didn’t have the common decency to at least pop in and formally introduce himself before I dedicate my entire life to him)- then that guy can go fuck himself. I don’t want to be on his team anyways. I’ll go spend eternity with the sinners. I’m sure they’ll be much more interesting conversationalists, anyways.

  32. germinfested November 6, 2008 at 9:21 pm #

    I really like the study of religions. Jesus seemed pretty cool, and had some really good ideas, and tried to spread the “love and accept everyone” bug. However, the bible is completely contorted and everything’s taken verbatim. If you look at it as big picture, and you look at it as philosophy, it’s a really fucking cool thing. But when you knit pick it to fucking pieces, and put into the wrong hands, it becomes hateful. As I said, Jesus was a GREAT philosopher. Whether he was divine or not, I’m not sure of, but I have my speculations that he wasn’t. I mean, realistically, they didn’t have the technology to actually tell if Mary was infact a “virgin” so, I mean..what? Did they take her word for it?

  33. melancholymonday November 6, 2008 at 9:48 pm #

    Our church had a guest speaker a couple of weeks ago and he said something that totally resonated with me. He said “Jesus didn’t die so we could be good. He died so we could be free.” and it totally shook me to the bone to realize that He gave us a license to use our common good sense. To be holy is to work on the sin in your own life, draw others to light so they can work on theirs all the while protecting the innocent.

    Oh, and back to the pedo thing. I get that homo is not synonymous with pedo, however, the whole camping scouts thought that was planted in my mind still creeps me out and I can’t shake it. I totally don’t care if my kids have gay teachers or whatever, but I do see some scenarios getting dicey when traditional gender/sex roles are exchanged for something quite different.

  34. hayley g November 6, 2008 at 9:58 pm #

    can’t we all just get along? like seriously , life is TOO short! LOVE IS LOVE!

  35. Kristen Ferrell November 6, 2008 at 10:18 pm #

    I don’t give the “cub scout leader” camping thing a second thought. It’s just an adult in charge of children. Who the adult chooses as a husband/wife doesn’t even enter my mind. If they’ve proven themselves qualified enough to be a role model for these children, and an adult to look up to- why would I ever question anything more? They’re adults. They’re caring for children. Period.
    I do know that if I was asked to watch my niece and her girlfriends for some overnight slumber party or something, and then I was told I couldn’t because I’m attracted to women- I’d be shattered. The fact that anyone would actually think that I would EVER be inappropriate with any child in my care just because of who I’m attracted to in my private and personal adult life would seriously destroy my heart in the most sincere way.

  36. melancholymonday November 7, 2008 at 9:15 am #

    Yeah, I see your point. Come to think of it, I wouldn’t let my kids be left alone with an adult I didn’t know/trust either way, and I’m not saying that I wouldn’t let my kids be watched by someone just because they were gay. That decision is based on who I can trust; that’s the only criteria.

  37. Kristen Ferrell November 7, 2008 at 10:36 am #

    Those kinds of situations have to be totally based on trust in the adult. And no healthy minded responsible adult would ever talk to someone else’s child about who they’re dating or involved with- or anything else in the adult’s private life. As a parent, you just have to be cautious of ANYONE you leave alone with your child…. it doesn’t matter what they’re sexual orientation is. Because the statistics show that more straight adults sexually assault children than homosexual adults do. And the majority of the time, it’s someone the child knows and trusts.

  38. germinfested November 7, 2008 at 9:57 pm #

  39. whitney November 7, 2008 at 11:15 pm #

    “but I can tell you from my own personal experience that when I was little (like age 4 and 5) I would chase girls around the playground trying to kiss them just as much as I would chase boys. My first “celebrity crushes” were the singer of “A-ha” AND Cyndi Lauper. I’ve always had the exact same amount of pull towards women that I’ve had towards men. And this was never a “choice”- it was always just there, right from the beginning- before I was ever taught what was “right and wrong” about relationships from the church.”

    i was (or am) like that when i was little too! and nice choice in crushes btw. 🙂 cyndi is a babe, haha. but yes-

    and jesse said- “If I were attracted to other men, for example, yet my beliefs dictate to me that that is wrong, I can still choose to not act on those attractions. This may mean that someone will have to go their whole lives without marrying. This will probably sound very arrogant of me, but, that is something that they’ll have to do. Each and every person in this world is given trials to endure in their lives.”

    this just doesnt make any sense to me…. i think people who are taught while growing up that being gay is a sin, but then they have these “urges” or attractions to the same sex, i’m sure they’re not going to tell anyone about it and will deny it cause their god says it’s wrong. so, basically, they just end up living a miserable life with this huge secret cause theyre afraid of being shunned or frowned upon. and i wouldnt be the least bit surprised if a suicide was the result from living like that…. because they were taught that their natural feelings are a sin.

    it’s been a long day for me… i’m having a hard time trying to scramble my thoughts! (especially after reading about 20+ posts with so many opinions, my brain is going bonkers).

    the other thing i was going to mention is that being gay isn’t just a choice, but is MOST LIKELY genetic. it has to be!! there is no other explanation. and as kristen said “it’s hardwired into us”.

    uhm, some other stuff and blah blah…..
    basically- Prop 8 was just ridiculous and a waste of time and just downright fucking MEAN. religion shouldnt even be dragged into it. just let two loyal people in a loving relationship be happy like every other shmuck out there. let them make their own mistakes. if they’re not happy, fine! that’s their own problem. just don’t deny them the right to make that mistake every other shitty straight marriage gets to.

    yeah, this shits gotta be overturned!


  40. Anthony B. November 9, 2008 at 12:03 am #

    Hi Kristen! Yaaay Obama! I’m glad we finally got this one right! I’m sending some overdue Kansas City love and had to also make a comment about the Prop 8 deal out there. It sucks that things went that way but at have some hope! Of course here is Misery errr Missouri we closed the deal on gay marriage right away. Nick and I have been together for over 5 years and of course won’t have any marriage rights any time soon.

    At the same time, we have always had a different take on the whole thing. We always liked the idea of just passing a civil union deal better. Take the word marriage out of it and then maybe the bible thumpers might not get as upset. But of course they probably would. We also have always thought that the idea was pushed too soon. Going after the idea during the Bush administration was probably rushing it. It’s almost too bad that a thing like that wasn’t considered during an Obama administration. As we become more tolerant and open minded as a society then more things like a civil union can be considered and its not a big deal.

    As far as it not being ‘real love’, let me address that for a moment. When you are with someone for over five years you can do a side by side comparison. You go through the same ups and downs. You see the person through thick and thin. You sometimes have money and sometimes the two of you are flat broke. And sometimes you wake up in the morning and they are drooling on the pillow, hair matted on their head, with crap in the corner of their eyes and let out a nice gassy fart in the morning and you just think “well gee…that’s fucking attractive”. Now if that isn’t marriage, I don’t know what is. The point being, after that amount of time if you stay with the person rather than going off on your own and you still like being with the person rather than anyone else… I’d say that’s love and worthy of the same rights of marriage as anyone else.

    But now because we have rushed the issue before everyone was ready and so many scared eldery people who have nothing better to do than vote on these things have made their opinions known, we have shut the door on the possibility of gay marriage. It will be a lot harder to reverse this issue in a lot of states. The hope is out there but it will be a long time coming.

    Let’s just hope that the new president will point us in the right direction!


    Keep up the good work and keep scaring the old biddies in front of his school!

    Love ya!


  41. Laura November 11, 2008 at 5:19 pm #

    I hadn’t felt the need to add anything to this discussion since I think Kristen explained it so eloquently, but this clip summarizes it so beautifully that I wanted to share it:

    Hopefully that clip worked! Here’s the link if not:

  42. Kristen Ferrell November 11, 2008 at 7:49 pm #

    Wow…. I think that does totally sum it up!
    I’m putting that on my website. Thank god for people in the media who aren’t afraid to stand up to ignorance and hate.
    Thank you, Laura!!!

    And Anthony…. I MISS YOU!!!!!! XOXOXOXOXO

  43. myshinyhell November 14, 2008 at 5:08 am #

    Kristen- I agree with you completely that Prop 8 should never have passed. I still can’t believe it did. I will never understand why the same “Christians” who tell people to “leave the judgement up to God” feel so obligated to do the exact opposite during their short time here on Earth.

    Mind your own business, folks. If two people love each other, their relationship really has nothing to do with you. If they want to seek a legal commitment, it also doesn’t affect you in any way unless you choose to stick your big, judgemental, holier-than-thou nose into it. I guess I just don’t understand where all the hate comes from. Why can’t they just let people be happy? Anyhow- I can’t state my reasons any better than you already have, my brilliant friend, so let me just say “What SHE said,” and be done now.

    But… on a more positive note… PRESIDENT-ELECT OBAMA. YES. I spent the entire next day crying in front of my television everytime they interviewed an elderly black person about how far we’ve come since the days of “Whites Only” drinking fountains, and other such ignorant shit. Everytime someone said, “I never thought I’d see the day…” I wept joyful tears. (A Hallmark commercial will usually also make me do this too… but STILL.) What a huge, wonderful step for our country. I am so happy about our new president.

    Yes we CAN, sister friend. 🙂 xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo.

  44. help us November 20, 2008 at 10:52 am #

    These are the most terrible and vicious hate sites and some of them are calling for the assasination of Barack Obama. I am not an American but we love him. The craziest thing is that these sites are tolerated by multiply.Please see and get shocked.

  45. Kristen Ferrell November 20, 2008 at 3:06 pm #

    Holy shit… I think I’m going to get ill.

    “Fear the wrath of freedom”?
    “Tolerance for the sake of tolerance is for the weak of conviction”? (I corrected her spelling errors because she obviously has the spelling equivalency of a 7 year old)

    What I think is so ironic is that every one of these blogs is SOOOOOOOOOOO right wing Christian.
    If these are Christians, I hope I go to hell. I don’t want to spend an eternity with this sick ignorant inbred losers.

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